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Barbarossa to Berlin: BtB - Take Two Journal

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Entry # Time Turn Player Title Entry
89 2/3/2018 5:01:00 PM Master ID = 19085 Game Deleted
88 2/3/2018 12:48:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message OK, Tom - it's just that you are another in my notch of friends/acquaintances in the wargaming loop, and I appreciate our games (and your lessons).

I will fire another one up presently.
87 2/3/2018 12:39:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Message No, BTB is never boring. If you pretend that you're paying $100 to start a game, and you would get $500 for a win, your approach would be different. =)

Live play pretty much never works for me - too many other things going on.
86 2/3/2018 12:30:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message I would not ask for any handicap from you as that would lessen my experience (and to be honest, my fun factor...believe it or not).

I am sorry if I am boring you, I am only trying to learn and I find that I learn best (at first) through experience.

We could set up a live session if that is easier (and doable by you). Just let me know what you want to do. I am all for another game, but don't want you feeling obligated.
85 2/3/2018 12:27:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Message The AL generally will not voluntarily give up VP early, especially in a 0-bid game. (I'd say half of all games feature the AX giving a VP to the AL.) "Saving" SWM should never be a T1AP6 objective unless you can accomplish your other goals.

With regards to restarts - I'm ok if you think you've learned everything you can but I must admit to little interest in constantly playing out the first few turns as the AX in the hope that you'll figure out how to stop the All-OPs opening on your own.

I suppose I could try to play sub-optimally, i.e., 'take it easy', but that would definitely be not fun for me and it might encourage some bad habits on your end.

Totally your call - if you want to restart, assume I start with the same opening and go ahead and roll through my attacks.
84 2/3/2018 10:22:00 AM Summer 1941 Allied Message Regarding the SW Mech unit - is it normal to take a VP hit with that one and get it out? I played the 2-OP to avoid the hit.

83 2/3/2018 10:21:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Message To be honest, the 2-OP play on turn 1 was really a suboptimal move. SWM is very brittle and it cost you a lot to save it.
82 2/3/2018 10:20:00 AM Summer 1941 Allied Message I am inclined to request another restart at this juncture. This game is likely the hardest to learn against a shark that I have experienced (more so than POG, which was also rough). I imagine many newcomers to BtB are scared away...but I still want to learn.

I won't ask for tips and want to take the Allies one more time before you "show me" what to do.

Of note, I will say that I have yet to draw Industrial Evacuation in either game. My understanding is that is a key event to get played in the early turns. I also thought that RPs on Turn 2 was critical to saving the Soviets over the long haul, but it seems I was mistaken.

I think I can sum the horror of BtB to the new player up in one word: PANZERS.

Let me know if starting a third game is good for you. :-)
81 2/3/2018 10:15:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Message Blau spots: Stalingrad, Maikop, Armavir. Those need to be garrisoned, they shield a lot of Soviet VPs.

As far as territorial position goes, this is typical, except for the loss of Stalingrad.
80 2/3/2018 10:12:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Message RPs are not even close to critical on the first two turns of this game. Saving Stalin is.
79 2/3/2018 10:12:00 AM Summer 1941 Allied Message Curious as to what you mean by Blau spots and Blau restrictions? Are the Blau spots the Urban centers?

I am asking if Allied players are put in this situation more often than not by the end of Turn 2.
78 2/3/2018 10:10:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Message Normal is probably a subjective assessment; the main drawback to your position is losing the Blau spot. You can save Stalin, survive 1941, but 42 will see the Axis still pressing hard.
77 2/3/2018 10:03:00 AM Summer 1941 Allied Message My view here is RPs are mandatory, and I can't save Stalin and take RPs at the same time...so game over?
76 2/3/2018 10:02:00 AM Summer 1941 Allied Message Before I go on, I would like to know if this is a "normal" board situation for the end of Turn 2 or if I have gotten myself into another no-win situation.
75 2/3/2018 10:01:00 AM Summer 1941 Allied Change Victory Points +3: from 11 to 14
Message from Allied:
Stalingrad, Moscow, Tula
74 2/3/2018 7:41:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Play Strategy card as Operations #4: 4 / Taifun
Axis places 4 Combat markers in any axis ocupied spaces (include. Multi-nationality spaces). +1DRM for all attack vs. Su this round. Allows Axis attack on Moscow. -1VP unless OKH Conference has been played.

Message from Axis:
Looks like I'll take Moscow the old fashioned way.

T2AX6
Kallinin: GE16(A) to Vladimir, GE9(A) to Yaroslavl via Moscow
Yaroslavl: 2PA to Voronezh via Tula and Kursk
Pinsk: GE6A to Smolensk
Kharkov: 1PA to Urbakh via Voroshilovgrad, Kamenskaya, Kalach, and Stalingrad

STE in Orel is OOS.
Moscow/Blau restrictions lifted, threat to Stalin.

Note a key difference in BTB when compared to POG - attrition occurs right after my round so I don't have to worry about OOS situations as long as I end my last round in supply.
73 2/2/2018 6:22:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Change Victory Points -1: from 12 to 11
Message from Allied:
Re-capture of Oral
72 2/2/2018 6:22:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Play Strategy card as Operations #4: 4 / Soviet Reinforcements
Place 1st-6th Tank Armies ==> RB. PREREQ: Play 4 or more turns after Industrial Evacuation

Message from Allied:
T2AL5

4 OPs:

Tula - Steppe Front to Oral via Kursk
Moscow - Don, Reserve, Central Fronts to Kazan
Vladimir - South Front, SUA to Perm
Saratov - Vordnezh Front to Kuibischev

** GE17A and (GE2A) OOS **
71 2/2/2018 6:16:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Change Victory Points +1: from 11 to 12
Message from Allied:
Odessa
70 2/2/2018 5:40:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Play Strategy card as Ops/Event #3: 2 / OKH Conference
Allow play of Taifun w/o VP penalty.

Message from Axis:
T2AX5
Rzhev: 4PA to Vyatka via Valdai, Rybinsk, Vologda, Sharya, Vyatka
Kishinev: PZ(c) to Perekop via Odessa, Kirovograd, Nikopol, Melitopol.

Supply, Stalin, Blau threats galore.
69 2/1/2018 6:46:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Play Strategy card as Strategic Redeployment #14: 5 / Lend-Lease
Allow play of Su Mech Fronts (31,37,39) on any later turn.

Message from Allied:
T2AL4

SR:

Moscow - Stalin to Kuibischev
Kaluga - South Front to Vladimir
RB - SUA to Gorki

I know this is probably pointless, but...

** OOS threat to Elets and Ryazan **
68 2/1/2018 6:29:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Change Victory Points +1: from 10 to 11
Message from Allied:
Oral
67 2/1/2018 1:22:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Play Strategy card as Operations #15: 3 / Wolfpacks
Allied hand size reduced by 2 for the next draw phase. PREREQ: May not be played after ASW Victory.

Message from Axis:
T2AX4
Vitebsk: 2PA to Kalinin via R-Y, Vyazma
Kalinin: Autokill SUa Yaroslavl, 2PA advances into Yaroslavl

Konotop:
GE17A to Ryazan via Elets and Kursk
GE2(A) to Elets via Bryansk and Orel

All sorts of supply, Stalin, and Moscow threats.
66 2/1/2018 7:38:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Message No effect other than addressing your WAlly MO.

WRT Leningrad - that guy often is there until he's eliminated or heads to Berlin.

Armavir - that's a Blau spot so 'efficient' play usually keeps it there.
65 2/1/2018 7:37:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 2

1
1


Message from Axis:
Tobruk - CWc attacks Gazala (2S vs 1S)
64 2/1/2018 7:06:00 AM Summer 1941 Allied Message Leningrad:

I have a hard time convincing myself to move that unit, as keeping something there denies you a VP unless you have the card to attack the fort. I am comfortable that this is the position they were in historically...

On another note, I keep overlooking the Front in the Armavir...ah well, my move is my move.
63 2/1/2018 7:02:00 AM Summer 1941 Allied Play Strategy card as Operations #23: 4 / Clearing the Scheldt
Allows Allied use of Antwerp supply PREREQ: May play if the Allies control Antwerp.

Message from Allied:
T2AL3

4 OPs:

Mozhaisk - Reserve Front to Moscow
Oral - SUA to Vladimir, Central Front to Moscow
Stalingrad - Stalingrad Front to Penza
Tobruk - CWc attacks Gazala (2S vs 1S) **MO DONE**
62 1/31/2018 10:25:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Message OK, SUa retreats to Yaroslavl from Rzhev.

Advances from V-L:
4PA to Rzhev
GE9(A), GE16(A) to Kalinin

Misc: When the battles are this close together, the defender will sometimes want to totally resolve one battle for the other. It's possible my advance from Battle #1 (Valdai) would be better determined by seeing the results of Battle #2 (Rzhev). Didn't make a difference in this situation since sealing off Leningrad is key for me, but just wanted to give you a heads-up.

And that's it for me tonight. Since you know my hand, obviously there's a threat to Stalin at this point.
61 1/31/2018 9:38:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message Yes that is correct, not sure what the heck I was thinking when I typed that. So many spaces in Mother Russia...
60 1/31/2018 9:36:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Message Valdai: 3P(A) advances to Novogrod.

Rzhev: Your SUa has to retreat two spaces, not three. Did you really mean to retreat to Yaroslavl via Kalinin from Rzhev?
59 1/31/2018 7:10:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message 6/3 AX win

SW Front permanently eliminated, replaced with SW non-mech Front - retreats to Yaroslavl via Rybinsk

Your loss and advance?
58 1/31/2018 7:05:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 2

5
3


Message from Allied:
Rzhev:

CP on 12L +1
AP on 5L
57 1/31/2018 7:04:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message 2/1 AX win

RUA eliminated

Advance?
56 1/31/2018 7:04:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 2

2
4


Message from Allied:
Valdai:

AX on 2L +1
AL on 2S
55 1/31/2018 7:02:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Change Victory Points +1: from 9 to 10
Message from Allied:
Kiev
54 1/31/2018 10:45:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Play Strategy card as Ops/Event #25: 4 / Stuka
All Ge attack vs. Su get +1 DRM this round. PREREQ: Maybe played in Summer/Fall 1941-43 only.

Message from Axis:
T2AX3
KD: 3P(A) attack Valdai, 2L+1 vs 2s, advance to Valdai
Minsk: 4PA to VL via Bobruisk, Gomel, O-M
VL: Attack Rzhev, 12L+1 vs 5L
Zhitomir: GE17A, GE2(A) to Konotop via Kiev and Chernigov
53 1/30/2018 9:09:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message I recognize an OOS risk to a couple units, but I felt it better to get these boys on the map!
52 1/30/2018 9:07:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Play Strategy card as Event #2: 4 / Soviet Reinforcements
Place Don, Stalingrad, Steppe, & Voronezh Fronts. Place 4x Armies ==> RB

Message from Allied:
T2AL2

Let's try this...

Stalingrad Front to...Stalingrad :-)
Don Front to Moscow
Steppe Front to Tula
Voronezh Front to Saratov

SU RB (7,0)
51 1/30/2018 9:00:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Change Victory Points +1: from 8 to 9
Message from Allied:
Khakov
50 1/30/2018 7:54:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Play Strategy card as Operations #22: 4 / German Reinforcements
Place PzAA at Tripoli. Remove 1 supplied Pz Corps in Libya/Egypt to RB.

Message from Axis:
T2AX2
Pskov: 3P(A) autokill SU(a) in Luga, advance into KD

Kaunas:
GE9(A), GE16A to VL
GE18A to Smolensk

Tarnow: GE2(A), GE17A to Zhitomir

Uman: 1PA autokills Odessa SUa, advances to Kharkov via Poltava, Cherkassi.

** Threats to Moscow, Stalin, Blau. **
49 1/30/2018 7:42:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Message Nope, I don't see any holes.

WRT your SR/Stalin comment - you definitely need to get him out but you basically need to plan carefully so that he can't get killed in Kuibishev.
48 1/29/2018 8:45:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message My 5 OPs:

Smolensk - RUA to Valdai
Dnepropetrovsk - RUA to Oral
Bobruisk - SW Mech Front to Rzhev
Chernigov - South Front to Kaluga
Gomel - Central Front to Oral

Hopefully this is something of a temporary line and I didn't miss a hole...

Over to you

47 1/29/2018 8:21:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message Some nasty events there, but at least you have no 5 OPs...

I failed to realize you couldn't attack Moscow until Taifun was played. This makes me think I SR'ed Stalin too early last game. Then again, you could have had it in your hand.
46 1/29/2018 8:02:00 AM Summer 1941 Axis Message Yes, CW attacks count as an Allied MO.

My remaining cards:

Taifun
Stuka
Wolfpacks
Kammhuber Line
OKH Conference
German Reinforcements (PzAA)
45 1/28/2018 9:46:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message Also - if the CW corps in Tobruk attacks, does that count as British for MO purposes?
44 1/28/2018 9:45:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Play Strategy card as Event #25: 5 / Enigma
The Axis player must show the Allied player his hand. PREREQ: May not be played if Allies control any space in Greater Germany. May not play during Spring Thaw.

Message from Allied:
T2AL1

Well, I know I will need these 5 OPs, so let's see your hand first...
43 1/28/2018 8:00:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Message I'm getting my ass kicked in combat! 3P(A) advances into Pskov via Riga.
42 1/28/2018 6:34:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message 4/3 AX win

Eliminate (NW Front) and replace with (SUA) (3,0) - (SUA) retreats to Luga

Flip 3PA

To you for advance decision
41 1/28/2018 6:33:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 2

6
6


Message from Allied:
Pskov:

AX on 4L
AL on 2L
40 1/28/2018 6:31:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message GEPAc that is currently in Kishinev is now flipped
39 1/28/2018 6:30:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 1

6


Message from Allied:
T-R

AL firing back on 2S
38 1/28/2018 6:23:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Play Strategy card as Operations #16: 5 / Speer
Allow play of 5th Pz & 6th SS Pz A & Final Production Surge event. PREREQ: May not play after Totaler Krieg.

Message from Axis:
T2AX1
Minsk: 2PA, 4PA to Dvinsk
Lublin: 1PA to Kovl via Lwow
Vienna: GE2(A) to Tarnow, PZc to Kovel

Kovel:
GE6A autokill SUa in Pinsk, advances into Pinsk
1PA, PZc autokill SUa in T-R, you get 2s return fire.
1PA advances to Uman
PZc advances to Kishinev via Vinnitsa

Dvinsk:
2PA autokills SUa Vitebsk, advances. (Threat to Moscow)
4PA autokills SUa Riga, advances to Minsk
3PA attacks Pskov, 4L vs 2L.
Possible advance TBD.

Supply threats all over the place.
37 1/28/2018 6:13:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message Page 19...the one section I missed...

Thanks!
36 1/28/2018 6:07:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Draw Strategy cards Drew 5 to replenish hand to 7 cards.
35 1/28/2018 6:07:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Discard Strategy card Message from Axis:
34 1/28/2018 6:07:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Discard Strategy card Message from Axis:
33 1/28/2018 6:06:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Discard Strategy card Message from Axis:
32 1/28/2018 6:06:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Discard Strategy card Message from Axis:
31 1/28/2018 6:05:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Message Check out the "Clarifications" section on page 19, third bullet of "Additional Clarifications". Alternatively, just think of the historical situation at the time. =)
30 1/28/2018 5:55:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message As for space colors, I must repeat - In POG the spaces were pre-tinted gray or clear to denote which side they belonged to in the beginning.

My example here can be pointed out in Libya, with the Italian units in Gazala and Bir Hacheim. How can I tell which side Mechili, Agedabia, etc., belong to? They are the same-colored space (desert) as the desert spaces in Egypt.
29 1/28/2018 5:52:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message Sorry...
In POG we kind of did our RPs irregardless of the strict sequence of play. I didn't see the harm of ending the turn as we still draw cards manually (probably should have held off on that). I know for next time.

SW Front goes to Bobruisk
28 1/28/2018 5:49:00 PM Summer 1941 Axis Message Misc Comments:
* Your SWF only has 4MF, not 5 like the Germans. (It went too far.)
* I'm not sure what you meant by 'neutral' colors. Egypt is ALL AL controlled. Algeria/Tunisia are part of Vichy France and thus aren't in yet.
* The AL player should not be ending the turns, Fred, let the AX player do it consistently. There's no benefit to having the AL do it and, as in this case, it can cause problems if the AL6 play wasn't legal. As in POG, the AL does RP first, then Axis.
27 1/28/2018 4:39:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message So I just looked under section 3 and all spaces on the map are neutral until a side takes control. Kind of weird, but OK.
26 1/28/2018 4:36:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message Are Tobruk, Alexandria and Cairo the only spaces that start the game in North Africa as AL controlled? Are all other spaces considered AX territory?

Just making sure, due to the neutral colored spaces on the map. My history tells me the above is the case, but just making sure.
25 1/28/2018 4:19:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Message AX = none
AL = AL MO
24 1/28/2018 4:18:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 2

4
1


Message from Allied:
T2 Orders:

AX
AL
23 1/28/2018 4:18:00 PM Summer 1941 Allied Draw Strategy cards Drew 3 to replenish hand to 7 cards.
22 1/28/2018 4:18:00 PM June 1941 Allied End Turn
21 1/28/2018 4:18:00 PM June 1941 Allied Discard Strategy card Message from Allied:
Discarding 1 card
20 1/28/2018 4:17:00 PM June 1941 Allied Message Bialystok dies to attrition - West Front eliminated, SU RB (4,0)

19 1/28/2018 4:15:00 PM June 1941 Allied Play Strategy card as Event #3: 2 / Stavka
Cancels any Soviet Orders for this turn

Message from Allied:
Let's see if this is worth it...

Event + 2 OPs:

Lwow - SWMF to Orsha-Mogilev via T-R, Zhitomir, Pinsk, Bobruisk
Kishinev - South Front to Chernigov via Vinnitsa, Kiev
18 1/28/2018 4:07:00 PM June 1941 Allied Message Yes, through Riga
17 1/28/2018 3:25:00 PM June 1941 Axis Message Flip GE9A, GE9(A), GE16A, GE18A advances to Kaunas. 4PA goes to Minsk. 3PA goes to Dvinsk via Vilna.

Also - you want to specify retreat routes in this game, particularly when infantry is attacking. I'm assuming (NW) goes through Riga.
16 1/28/2018 12:55:00 PM June 1941 Allied Change Victory Points +1: from 7 to 8
Message from Allied:
Minsk
15 1/28/2018 12:53:00 PM June 1941 Allied Message Clearly the universe favors me presently

5/3 AX win

Flip NW Front - retreat to Pskov

Your choice for flip and advance decisions at Kaunas and Courland.
14 1/28/2018 12:51:00 PM June 1941 Allied Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 2

1
3


Message from Allied:
Kaunas:

AX on 15L (+1)
AL on 3L (+1)
13 1/28/2018 12:50:00 PM June 1941 Allied Play Strategy card as Combat #10: 2 / NKVD Boosts Morale
"+1 DRM" for defending Soviet Units.

Message from Allied:
No reason to not use this at Kaunas
12 1/28/2018 12:47:00 PM June 1941 Allied Message I actually killed someone...

Eliminate GEc
GE4A sits in B-L alone
11 1/28/2018 12:46:00 PM June 1941 Allied Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 1

6


Message from Allied:
Brest-Litovsk:

AL firing back on 2S
10 1/28/2018 11:59:00 AM June 1941 Axis Message I can't remember the last time I've seen VPP played, especially in a competitive match.

As far as the opening, it's pretty normal. There are a few variants, I'll sometimes go with one featuring an attack on your mech unit.

OK, heading off to do house stuff, etc.
9 1/28/2018 11:55:00 AM June 1941 Allied Message Ah, sorry, missed your first line. Same opening.

Question - how often is Paulus used to open in your experience?
8 1/28/2018 11:55:00 AM June 1941 Allied Message Did you literally copy and paste that from somewhere? Looks like the same opening. I take it this is standard?

Will get my response to you a little later!

7 1/28/2018 11:54:00 AM June 1941 Axis Play Strategy card as Event #1: 5 / Barbarossa
Axis places 5 Combat markers in any axis ocupied spaces (include. Multi-nationality spaces). +1 DRM for all Ge attack vs. Su this round. Cancels Su Trench No Retreat option & Def 1R effect for entire turn. PREREQ: Play on Turn 1 only. May not play if Von Paulus Pause has been played.

Message from Axis:
No surprise, same opening.

GE7(A) to Calais, GE1(A) to Reims

Stalin Orders on Kolomyja, Kishinev, Lwow

Place Stand-fast Markers on Lwow, Kolomyja, and Kishinev.

Combats:
Yassi: GE11(A) autokills SUa Chernovitsi, advance. (3L+1 vs 2s)

Lublin: GE6A autokills SUa Kovel and advances in.

Warsaw: All attack B-L. (You get 2s return fire.)
GE4A, GEc advance into B-L
GE2PA advances to Minsk via Baranovich

Memel/Insterberg:
All excl GE4PA vs Kaunas, 15L+1 vs 3L
(Advances TBD)

GE4PA autokills SUa Courland
(Advance TBD)
6 1/28/2018 11:53:00 AM June 1941 Allied Message Never a rush - just that I am used to you starting a game quicker. At your leisure, sir (as I am fond of saying).
5 1/28/2018 11:52:00 AM June 1941 Axis Message Thanks for the prompting, I guess I deleted the prior messages. Will get my opening to you shortly...
4 1/28/2018 11:52:00 AM June 1941 Axis Draw Strategy cards Drew 7 to replenish hand to 7 cards.
3 1/28/2018 11:28:00 AM June 1941 Allied Message Not sure if you saw yet or not, but here is our re-made game :-)
2 1/27/2018 6:17:00 PM June 1941 Allied Draw Strategy cards Drew 7 to replenish hand to 7 cards.
1 1/27/2018 6:17:00 PM June 1941 Allied Message OK, re-boot.

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