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Hannibal: DaveB - Jeff Game Mar 2020 Journal

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Entry # Time Turn Player Title Entry
514 1/24/2021 12:37:00 AM 206-204 BC Carthage Message P.S. I don't know if you were able to watch any of the inauguration, but the poetry reading by the 22-year-old from Los Angeles, and the "Celebrating America" concert that night, in particular were well done (especially the song by Bruce Spingsteen at the beginning and the simply astonishing fireworks display at the end).


513 1/24/2021 12:33:00 AM 206-204 BC Carthage Message You may go first.

512 1/20/2021 3:39:00 AM 206-204 BC Rome Message Rome will decline to play a Campaign card to start.
511 1/20/2021 3:38:00 AM 206-204 BC Rome Message Jeff, I can fully understand you being pre-occupied, very sad state of affairs. Let's hope it starts to settle down.
510 1/18/2021 12:05:00 AM 206-204 BC Carthage Message Are you campaigning to go first?

509 1/18/2021 12:01:00 AM 206-204 BC Carthage Draw Strategy cards 9 cards drawn.

508 1/18/2021 12:01:00 AM 206-204 BC Carthage Message I'm afraid I've been preoccupied with events here over the past week. It's simply been hard to focus on anything else. More troubling information keeps coming out all the time:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/it-was-much-worse-it-looked/617693/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Carthaginian reinforcements:

1 CU in Carthage (now 7 CUs, 2 CU-e's)
2 CUs at Tarraco with Hasdrubal (now 6 CUs)
1 CU with Hannibal at Boii (now 9 CUs)


507 1/11/2021 3:03:00 AM 206-204 BC Rome Message I will wait to see what Carthage does with reinforcements before deciding if Rome will play a Campaign card to start.

506 1/11/2021 3:01:00 AM 206-204 BC Rome Draw Strategy cards 9 cards drawn.

505 1/11/2021 3:01:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome End Turn
504 1/11/2021 3:00:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Flaminius and Varro are the new Consuls and go to Rome to join Africanus and Nero and the 18 CUs.

503 1/11/2021 2:58:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Die roll request Request: 8-sided die x 10

8
4
5
5
4
6
5
5
7
4


Message from Rome:
Rolling for the 2 new consuls. First 2 valid dice.
Consul order is:
1 – P Scipio
2 – Nero
3 – Longus
4 – Varro
5 – Fabius
6 – Marcellus
7 – Paulus
8 - Flaminus
502 1/11/2021 2:57:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Nero is asked to stay on as ProConsul.
Add 5 CUs at Rome giving 18CUs there.
Let's see who the new consuls are.

501 1/11/2021 2:55:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Remove PCs at Tolosa and Gergovia for the 2 less provinces I control.
500 1/11/2021 2:54:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Yes, pretty unbelievable things happening in the US. I have empathy with all rational Americans in these crazy times.
499 1/10/2021 12:41:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Message We've had a pretty crazy week here, obviously. I grew up in Georgia, where the two Senate races were decided on Tuesday-Wednesday. They were very close, so I was obsessed with watching those Tuesday night and stayed up late. But then Wednesday turned out to be an even bigger news day . . . .

498 1/10/2021 12:37:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Message So we move to the end of the Turn.

Winter Attrition: None.
PC Isolation: None.

Victory Check:

- Carthage has a total of 10 provinces (4 in Africa, 4 in Spain, plus Gallia Cisalpina and Syracuse.

- Rome has 6 provinces in Italy, plus Sicily and Corsica-Sardinia = 8.

So Rome removes 2 PCs.

497 1/10/2021 12:05:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Operations #49: 1 / Opposing Fleet Breaks Siege
(Both) Remove all accrued siege points at any one port

Message from Carthage:
I'll play this to activate Hannibal, who will move with 1 CU across the Appenines to Pisae, where he will drop off that CU. He then returns across the Appenines to rejoin his army at Boii.

The Attrition die roll couldn't result in any losses under these circumstances.
496 1/5/2021 3:03:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Play Strategy card as Operations #59: 1 / Ally Deserts
(Both) Draw one BC from your opponent's hand and add it to your own.

Message from Rome:
Those Boliians will pay a hefty price for spurning Rome.
Add a PC at Tolosa.
This is the last Roman card.
495 1/4/2021 12:51:00 PM 209-207 BC Carthage Message Hannibal, H. Gisgo, and their 9 CUs will continue on to Boii, where they commend the locals on their successful resistance to the Roman siege.


494 1/4/2021 12:44:00 PM 209-207 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Operations #61: 1 / Force March (1 rating)
(Both) Move a General whose Strategy Rating is 1 up to six spaces.

Message from Carthage:
Played as operations.
493 1/4/2021 12:44:00 PM 209-207 BC Carthage Return Strategy card to hand #61: 1 / Force March (1 rating)

Message from Carthage:
Thanks for the reminder. I'll clear this up.
492 1/3/2021 12:43:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Rome will not react to Hannibal crossing the Alps.
And a heads up, playing cards such as Force March and Campaign do not count as Events, they are operations. This is important related to the Truce card. Hannibal can continue.
491 1/3/2021 12:41:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Jeff, Happy New Year to you also and ya, let's hope that the vaccine gets around to folks and things start getting better. I can not believe how some people don't seem to take this virus seriously.
490 1/2/2021 11:52:00 PM 209-207 BC Carthage Message The Alps crossing goes as well as can be hoped for with a loss of only 1 CU, unless you have some card to play that could complicate matters. So I will wait to find out whether you do before finishing my move.


489 1/2/2021 11:47:00 PM 209-207 BC Carthage Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 1

2


Message from Carthage:
Alps crossing:


488 1/2/2021 11:46:00 PM 209-207 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Event #61: 1 / Force March (1 rating)
(Both) Move a General whose Strategy Rating is 1 up to six spaces.

Message from Carthage:
Hannibal's army gets on the move at last. He, H. Gisgo, and their 10 CUs march as follows:

- Druentia
- Alps crossing to Taurini.

Then I must roll for the Alps crossing.

487 1/2/2021 11:44:00 PM 209-207 BC Carthage Message Dave, the first thing is: I hope you had as merry a Christmas as is possible under our current circumstances, and a propitious start to the New Year! At least there is good reason to hope that this one will be better than what we've just passed through.

486 12/21/2020 12:04:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message That was actually Roman Action #7
485 12/21/2020 12:02:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Play Strategy card as Operations #33: 3 / Major Campaign
(Both) MOVE ANY THREE GENERALS. Each General can move up to four spaces with 10 combat units.

Message from Rome:
Roman action #6
Things are going from bad to worse.
Now 8CUs and 2E in Carthage
Add a CU in Rome giving 13CUs there.
484 12/20/2020 6:29:00 PM 209-207 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Event #10: 2 / Macedonian Reinforcements
(Carthage) Place two Carthaginian CU's in any friendly controlled port in Africa or Italy. May only be played while Philip V of Macedonia is allied with Carthage.

Message from Carthage:
Assisted by the additional security provided by the Syracusan navy, a Macedonian expeditionary force arrives in Carthage.
483 12/20/2020 1:31:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Play Strategy card as Operations #52: 2 / Pestilence
(Both) One opposing Army currently besieging a city must roll on the Attrition Table with a +1 die roll modifier.

Message from Rome:
Roman Action 6
Add PCs at Arpi and Gergovia.
482 12/20/2020 1:29:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Yes, very concerning that Syracuse citizens have abandoned their Roman friends. We'll have to change that.
481 12/19/2020 3:47:00 PM 209-207 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Event #26: 3 / Syracuse Allies with Carthage
(Carthage) You immediately gain control of Syracuse (any Roman units inside are eliminated. Syracuse provides a -1 modifier for Sea Movement

Message from Carthage:
Sensing that the tide seems to be turning in Carthage's favor, the Syracusans join the Carthaginian-Macedonian alliance.

480 12/16/2020 2:01:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Play Strategy card as Operations #56: 2 / Grain Shortage
(Carthage) Remove any three Roman non-walled PCs. You may only play this card if you control Sicilia.

Message from Rome:
Roman Action #5
Not happy to see more elephants.
Add PCs at Sena and Druentia.
479 12/13/2020 6:52:00 PM 209-207 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Event #12: 2 / African Reinforcements
(Carthage) Place one Elephant unit (at strength level 2) in Carthage. If an Elephant unit is not available, place two regular CUs in Carthage

Message from Carthage:
Mago sees your two additional CUs in Rome and matches them with two CU-e's.

As Mago inspects his new pachyderm allies, he is pleased they are of solid African stock. No mere Indian animals, these! Let the Seleucids have those.

478 12/11/2020 1:45:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Play Strategy card as Operations #43: 3 / Two Legions of Slaves Raised
(Rome) The Roman Player receives four CUs in Latium if it contains no Carthaginian CUs. May only be played if Carthage currently controls three or more provinces in Italy.

Message from Rome:
Roman Action #4
I hope that Mago was pleased with the case of Roman wine sent to him as he arrived in Carthage. Drink up, drink up, drink up and stay in Carthage for a long time.
Meanwhile another troop is raised in Rome giving 12 CUs there.
477 12/11/2020 12:55:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 1

5


Message from Carthage:
But as a matter of form:




476 12/11/2020 12:55:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Operations #1: 3 / Corsica and Sardinia Revolt
(Both) If your opponent has control of Corsica/Sardinia, remove all his PCs in that province which are not stacked with his CUs.

Message from Carthage:
I'll play this for a Naval Move. Mago will sail with 1 CU from Tarraco to Carthage.

-2 Carthage Port rating
-1 Macedonian Alliance
-1 Mago Special Ability
-1 Moving with only 1 CU

= -5 The naval move is automatically successful.
475 12/10/2020 1:55:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Play Strategy card as Operations #32: 1 / Numidian Allies Desert
(Both) Play at the start of any Combat in Africa. Your opponent does not receive any BC bonuses for control of either Western or Eastern Numidia.

Message from Rome:
Roman Action #3
The citizens of Faesulae declare their unwavering support for Rome. Add PC at Faesulae.
474 12/10/2020 1:53:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Ya, very unhappy that you got one of my reinforcement cards.
473 12/10/2020 1:52:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Jeff, thanks for that video, very interesting and I then read a bit more on the Roman Horreum.
472 12/9/2020 12:51:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Message Also, I always enjoy checking out the places where our armies have battled, and I found a nice 4-minute clip on YouTube that provides a video tour of Narbonne. There's even a few seconds showing the Roman Horreum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL1-cAHxCGo&t=6s

471 12/9/2020 12:45:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Operations #57: 1 / Hanno Counsels Carthage
(Rome) Carthaginian CUs are prohibited from leaving Africa until the Strategy Deck is reshuffled.

Message from Carthage:
The citizens of Pisae, fondly recalling Hannibal's previous visits to their city, declare for Carthage!

Place 1 PC.
470 12/9/2020 12:08:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Message I assumed you had one or more reinforcement cards, so I was hoping to snag one.

But it was bitter for me to see you play a reinforcement card that I could have used to recruit more of those handy Gallic recruits north of the Appenines!


469 12/8/2020 2:04:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Play Strategy card as Operations #24: 3 / Sophonsiba Seduces a Numidian Kin
(Carthage) Pick either Western or Eastern Numidia and place up to three Carthaginian PCs in that province in spaces which do not contain enemy CUs. If the space contains a Roman PC, the PC is simply flipped.

Message from Rome:
Roman Action #2
Not happy with the card I had to discard.
Raise a troop in Rome with the 3 OPs card.
Now 11CUs in Rome.
468 12/8/2020 1:59:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Discard random Strategy card Operations - 2 / Allied Auxiliaries (Etruria)

Message from Rome:
Philip has no right working with Carthage.
Discard a card.
467 12/8/2020 12:42:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Event #9: 3 / Philip Allies with Carthage
(Both) The Roman must randomly discard on Strategy Card. Carthage receives a -1 die roll modifier for Sea Movement. Once Macedonia is at war, this event becomes playable only by Rome and ends the Macedonian alliance.

Message from Carthage:
Encouraged by the recent Carthaginian successes, Philip V concludes an alliance with Carthage.
466 12/5/2020 4:35:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Play Strategy card as Operations #16: 2 / Gallic Recruits
(Carthage) Place two Carthaginian CU's with any General located in Gallia Transalpinia or Cisalpinia

Message from Rome:
Roman Action #1
With the Subjugation at Boli ended, all generals with their troops are ordered back to Rome.
Flam, Paulus, Nero and 9CUs head back to Rome join Africanus and his 1CU. They talk about what went wrong in Gallia Transalapinia and Massilia provinces. New battle plans are drawn up.
465 12/5/2020 1:22:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Event #17: 1 / Surprise Sortie
(Both) Remove 1 Siege Point from any one Walled City

Message from Carthage:
The Boii make a surprise sortie and destroy much of the Roman siege works. Your 1 subjugation marker is removed.
464 12/3/2020 12:02:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Message I'm pretty sure I will go first, but I face some interesting choices. I had to work late tonight, but I should be able to resolve those and make my move tomorrow.
463 11/30/2020 2:36:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Rome will decline to play a Campaign card to start. Carthaginian decides who goes first.
462 11/30/2020 2:29:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Draw Strategy cards 9 cards drawn.

461 11/30/2020 2:29:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Paulus and Flaminius are the new Consuls and go to Boli to join Nero and 9CUs.

460 11/30/2020 2:25:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Die roll request Request: 8-sided die x 10

7
7
8
2
7
3
7
6
6
6


Message from Rome:
Rolling for the 2 new consuls. First 2 valid dice.
Consul order is:
1 – P Scipio
2 – Nero
3 – Longus
4 – Varro
5 – Fabius
6 – Marcellus
7 – Paulus
8 - Flaminus
459 11/30/2020 2:23:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Add 5 CUs to the group at Boli, giving 9CUs there.
Nero is asked to stay on as ProConsul.
I'll now draw for my two new Consuls.
458 11/30/2020 2:21:00 AM 209-207 BC Rome Message Thanks for the adjustments, I just messed up when I "transferred" them from the old module. I like the look of version 2 of the module.
457 11/29/2020 12:37:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Draw Strategy cards 9 cards drawn.

456 11/29/2020 12:36:00 AM 211-210 BC Carthage End Turn Deck was reshuffled.

455 11/29/2020 12:35:00 AM 211-210 BC Carthage Message My Bad. I guess I needed to click on "End Turn".
454 11/29/2020 12:34:00 AM 209-207 BC Carthage Change game turn Game turn changed to 211-210 BC
453 11/29/2020 12:33:00 AM 211-210 BC Carthage Change game turn Game turn changed to 209-207 BC
452 11/29/2020 12:22:00 AM 211-210 BC Carthage Message With regard to the game state, the only corrections are as follows:

- I have 3 CUs, not 4, with Hasdrubal and Mago at Tarraco.

- My 1 CU in Corsica is in Aleria, not Sassari.

Interesting to see a different format of the map.

For my reinforcements, I will place:

- 1 CU with Hannibal at Nice.
- 1 CU with Hanno at Carthage.
- 2 CUs with Hasdrubal and Mago at Tarraco.

And Hannibal Gisgo will return to the game to join Hannibal at Nice.

Of course, it does turn out that your one remaining card is the Diplomacy card! I had thought my PCs in Etruria were safe into the next turn. You really do have a knack for often coming up with the card I least want to see!

451 11/28/2020 4:58:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Message OK, onto turn 7 (year 209-207).
Carthage gets 4 CUs.
Then Romans will roll for consuls, etc.
450 11/28/2020 4:52:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Message Next comes Province control count. We both have 9 provinces.
449 11/28/2020 4:52:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Message Next come isolation.
Your two PCs in Etruria province are isolated and removed.
448 11/28/2020 4:50:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Message No troops lost at Boli so
Fabius, Flam, Nero (proconsul) and 4CUs remain there with 1 subjacation point.

447 11/28/2020 4:48:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 1

1


Message from Rome:
Rolling for Boli winter attrition.
446 11/28/2020 4:48:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Message It's the end of 210 so time to do
Winter attrition.
My 4CUs at Boli need to roll
445 11/28/2020 4:45:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Play Strategy card as Event #36: 2 / Diplomacy
(Both) Convert any one non-walled, non-tribal enemy PC Marker in a space without an enemy CU into a friendly PC Marker.

Message from Rome:
Flip Cosa.
444 11/28/2020 4:44:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Message For some reason my Vassal module has stopped letting me flip or remove PC markers. So I have downloaded version 2 of the module. I'll take a screen print of what I have for the situation and email it to you. Please check and we can discuss any differences.

443 11/28/2020 4:43:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Message Jeff, in our battle, I actually still had a Reserve card but decided not to match as I didn't want to have the battle go longer and it looked like I was going to lose. I didn't want to lose 6 CUs and lose Africanus. Better that he survives with 1CU to fight another day.
I had 1 DE card.
442 11/28/2020 1:16:00 AM 211-210 BC Carthage Play Strategy card as Operations #1: 3 / Corsica and Sardinia Revolt
(Both) If your opponent has control of Corsica/Sardinia, remove all his PCs in that province which are not stacked with his CUs.

Message from Carthage:
I'll use this to activate Hannibal, and move his army of 9 CUs as follows:

- Nemausus
- Massilia
- Nice.
441 11/27/2020 11:52:00 PM 211-210 BC Carthage Message Oh, so excruciatingly close to eliminating Scipio! I wondered if I should have shifted to a DE for that last round.

Still: can't really complain about the overall casualty figures.

440 11/26/2020 8:26:00 PM 211-210 BC Rome Play Strategy card as Operations #50: 3 / Adriatic Pirates
(Carthage) If you use this card as an OC for Sea Movement and carry no more than 3 CUs plus a General, you do not have to roll on the Naval Combat Table if you embark or debark at either Brundisium, Croton or Tarentum

Message from Rome:
Africanus and his last brave troop, tuck in their tails and sail back to Rome.
439 11/26/2020 8:24:00 PM 211-210 BC Rome Message That should be Sena and Apri.
438 11/26/2020 8:21:00 PM 211-210 BC Rome Message Remove Sena and Arpi PCs for battle losses.
437 11/26/2020 8:14:00 PM 211-210 BC Rome Message Not good but at least Africanus survives.
Both lose 1 CU to attrition then Africanus loses 4 more CUs due to retreat.
So Hannibal has 9CUs
Africanus has 1CU and retreats to Emporiae.

436 11/26/2020 8:12:00 PM 211-210 BC Rome Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 2

4
5


Message from Rome:
1st die: battle attrition after 5 rounds
2nd die: retreat losses
435 11/26/2020 8:11:00 PM 211-210 BC Rome Message Africanus' right flank collapses.
So battle ends after 5 rounds.
I'll now roll for battle attrition and retreat loss.

434 11/26/2020 8:08:00 PM 211-210 BC Rome Message And you have a great and safe Thanksgiving. Yes, we have ours in early October before the snow flies !
433 11/26/2020 12:41:00 PM 211-210 BC Carthage Message Wishing you a (belated) Happy Canadian Thanksgiving!

I was wondering whether Canada also celebrated a Thanksgiving Day, so I looked it up and learned that yours happens on the second Monday in October. It was interesting to read about the different traditions and foods associated with your holiday.

Our date (fourth Thursday in October) is really rather late for a harvest festival.

432 11/26/2020 12:45:00 AM 211-210 BC Carthage Play Battle card #28 Flank Right

Message from Carthage:
Round 5.

Hannibal keeps up his pressure on Scipio's right.
431 11/26/2020 12:38:00 AM 211-210 BC Carthage Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 1

1


Message from Carthage:
Rolling for Initiative.


430 11/26/2020 12:38:00 AM 211-210 BC Carthage Play Battle card #1 Frontal Assault

Message from Carthage:
I can match that.
429 11/25/2020 11:19:00 PM 211-210 BC Rome Play Battle card #8 Frontal Assault

Message from Rome:
For Round 4, Africanus pushes on the Front
428 11/25/2020 11:19:00 PM 211-210 BC Rome Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 1

1


Message from Rome:
Africanus for init
427 11/25/2020 11:18:00 PM 211-210 BC Rome Play Battle card #48 Reserve (use as any other card)

Message from Rome:
Africanus brings in the Reserves to plug the FR.
426 11/25/2020 11:11:00 PM 211-210 BC Carthage Play Battle card #27 Flank Right

Message from Carthage:
Yes, that is one of the great things about wargames -- they can be the start of a broader education.

Round # 3.
425 11/25/2020 11:06:00 PM 211-210 BC Carthage Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 1

3


Message from Carthage:
Roll for Initiative.


424 11/25/2020 11:05:00 PM 211-210 BC Carthage Play Battle card #10 Frontal Assault

Message from Carthage:
I'll match that.
423 11/25/2020 12:47:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Play Battle card #7 Frontal Assault

Message from Rome:
Africanus got init and for Round 2
Attacks in the Front.
422 11/25/2020 12:46:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Die roll request Request: 6-sided die x 1

4


Message from Rome:
Africanus for init
421 11/25/2020 12:46:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Play Battle card #23 Flank Right

Message from Rome:
Africanus matches the FR.
Interesting information on Narbo. That is one thing I love about wargames, it gets me interested in the history and I then read about the war, etc. Read a book on Hannibal, was very interesting.
420 11/25/2020 12:14:00 AM 211-210 BC Carthage Play Battle card #24 Flank Right

Message from Carthage:
The Battle of Narbo.

I was actually reading about Narbo just recently. It later became a major port, but that was long after the Second Punic War. Its principle Roman vestige is a series of massive underground storage chambers (the Horreum) that were hollowed out of rock to hold and preserve goods while waiting for shipment. It is apparently 16' underground, and quite cold.

Round # 1:

419 11/24/2020 11:55:00 PM 211-210 BC Carthage Battle Hands dealt Battle 10

Carthage: 14 cards
Rome: 12 cards
418 11/24/2020 11:54:00 PM 211-210 BC Carthage Message Thanks. I appreciate that. I'll review the rules again to refresh myself.

417 11/24/2020 12:50:00 AM 211-210 BC Rome Message Sure, let’s start the battle again. The Allies rule was in the AH edition, but I don’t think as clear
416 11/23/2020 10:01:00 PM 211-210 BC Carthage Message Interestingly, going back to our previous issue, the most recent edition of the "Hannibal" rules now includes an express reference to Massilia and Gallia Transalpina under the "Allies" rule, which makes clear that you can get Allies in combat in those locations:

14.2.3.3. Allies in the independent provinces (Baleares, Corsica/Sardinia, Gallia Transalpina, Massilia, Liguria and, if in play, Mauretania) are not available outside of their own provinces.



415 11/23/2020 9:52:00 PM 211-210 BC Carthage Message Can I suggest that we cancel our current cards, re-draw them, and take this from the top?

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